Public Hearing Thursday May 19, 2005 Mariaville School for Sewer District No. 2 cost increases.

Present was Council-members Carlson, Frisbee, Potter, Pneuman, Supervisor Merrihew. Also present was Attorneys for the town Siegel and Fassett.

Supervisor Merrihew opened the public hearing at 7:00p.m. followed, by the pledge to the flag and read the legal notice for the public hearing as posted in the Gazette Newspaper on May 2, 2005.

Supervisor Merrihew introduced the Town Board, Attorneys, Town Clerk and the members on McDonald Engineering. She also thanked the school for the use of their facility.

Supervisor Merrihew explained the purpose of the hearing is to hear discussion on the cost increases only. We are specifically going to stick to that subject during the public hearing. After the public hearing when we close the floor, Mr. McDonald will be willing to entertain any questions or comments considering any other aspects of the sewer district.

John McDonald explained the cost increase. This is not an easy thing for them, this has never happened to them before. He apologized to the residents and the town board for the public hearing tonight. It is not the town boards fault, it is not the contractors fault, their estimates were to low and they take full responsibility. They did not allow for enough contingencies. They are the fourth engineer that has worked on this project for the Town of Duanesburg and were hired by the town in 1995 for all three- sewer districts. In Delanson they came in under budget, everything went fine. The problem with this project, is that at the first sewer district public hearing in 2001 it was with the intent on building it in 2003. We did not build it in 2003, had we built it in 2003 the cost would be lower, we are building it in 2005 and as a result the cost is higher. That's the bad news. The good news is the extra $475,000.00 is going to be funded 100% grants. The cost increase is not actually going to happen. An update survey was done on the annual household income and we re-applied to the federal government for more money. The new census data based on the 2000 census data Duanesburgs median household income was way above the threshold for grant money available. We had to do a specific income survey for Mariaville and sent it in with new information to the federal government. We were told the $475,000.00 was going to be covered by grant money, which means we are not going to have to pay it back. It was approved by the state office then sent down to Washington. There are three offices that have to approve it. The Washington Engineering Office approved the cost increase, the underwriters section approved the grant money, it now just needs a final financial review section. That should happen next week. What he suggested to the Town Board is instead of adopting a resolution tonight wait until the next town board meeting. At that point they will have information from the federal government that will say this increase is going to be grant money.

The engineer takes full responsibility, they encountered conditions that they didn't anticipate, they didn't have enough contingency left to cover it because of the delay, and the costs were higher.

Floor opened to public comments:

Gary Gllbert - Mariaville Road - Asked what this meeting is for, is this in case the grant money doesn't come in? Supervisor Merrihew - yes. John McDonald - Town law requires if there is a $1.00 increase in the cost of the project you have to have a public hearing on the increase, whether it is grant money or not.

Homer Ray - Mariaville Road - If the project is going to cost residents $30.00 more a year, and we are being charged for it this year and we don't even have it, why doesn't the money we are being charged for this year be used to cover the $30.00?

John McDonald - The reason why you are paying for it now is because when you borrow the money, the law says you have to start paying it back in two years.

Homer Ray- We have no use for what we paid for.

John McDonald- The project was delayed. You paid the first year of your debt service in 2005 there is 38 years all together it is not going to add another year on.

Joyce Bushey -Hillside Road - She thought the debt service was for 20 years and now you are saying 38 years. How much is it going to be per household and how much for lateral?

John McDonald - Right now, the annual cost for a single-family household is $624.00 that is what was approved in 2004 for the first year. If we don't get any grant money than it will be $654.00 for a single family home. There are two components of the loan money you have to take some loan money from USRD and that is paid back over 38 years at 4 ½%, we are also getting zero percent money and that is paid back over 30 years.

Bob Gilbert - Mariaville Road - What if everyone here says no, they refuse to pay the extra money. It is going to happen anyway, right? Supervisor Merrihew - That's a fair assumption.

Bob Gilbert - Did anyone from the engineer's office asked the residents if any complications with rock. A lot of people have dug around here and Duanesburg is mostly rock and clay.

John McDonald - It wasn't that we didn't know there was rock, they knew there was rock they did soil borings every 500'.

Doug Cole - McDonald Engineers Office - Soil borings were done up and down South Shore Road, we consulted with Schenectady County Soil and Water District, and, yes they knew there was rock there.

John McDonald - It wasn't a surprise that there was rock, they didn't anticipate as much as was there. When they did Delanson there was a lot of rock, but the rock there is down 4', here, you move the sewer line 5' there was no rock another spot you move the sewer line and you are down 3'.

John McDonald - In Delanson they knew exactly because it is all level, here it is up and down and it added a lot more than they figured.

Mr. Gilbert - Apparently we qualified for grants to get the extra money. If these grants reduce the median income level in this immediate area, why didn't we already have two grants, all of a sudden we quality for grants that we didn't have before? We should have already had that money to keep the initial cost down. If that is McDonald's error, if they make mistakes to bad then they got to eat it. This grant should help defray the costs that are already too much anyhow. Why haven't we gotten before, the median income hasn't gotten any lower?

John McDonald - The way they assign grant money to your community and is based on how much you can afford to pay.

Mr. Gilbert - So McDonald Engineer is free and clear? John McDonald - No, they are not free and clear. This bothers them they don't like this they don't like doing business like this and are troubled by it. They have been here for 10 years trying to get this done, and we got it done. In a couple of years you will look back and say we have a sewer system, we are of the only communities to have a sewer system at a reasonable price. Today they are doing work for many communities and there are no grants, the programs are gone.

Marty Mugits - Mariaville Road- This is the second increase whether it's the engineers fault or not and we don't even have the sewers yet. You did Delanson's sewer, what did you tell Delanson what going to be at the beginning versus what they were paying at the end?

ohn McDonald - Delanson's came in for a lot less. Originally at the public hearing was $584.00 and in the first year it was $440.00 then $480.00, it is still under what they said.

Marty Mugits- As far as he is concerned where he lives, he doesn't need sewers. He does not live that close to the lake.

Pete Balis - So. Shore Road - Was there a line item in the bid for contractors if they ran into a problem?

Doug Cole - They were all bidding on the quantity that we put on bid sheet.

Mr. Balis - Most bids that he has seen there is an estimate by the engineer of, what's in the ground. If the contractor that is bidding the job wants further information he can do his own borings or dig his own test holes to help him do his bid.

Doug Cole - They are not asking for a change in their bid price. The bid amount is $90.00 a yard and that is what we are paying.

Roy Brasmeister - Hilltop Road - At a board meeting last year the cost was $584.00 and would not exceed that. How did we get the $650.00 figure we have now? John McDonald - The original amount was $598.00 first quoted in 2002. Then we went out to bid in 2004 and the bid came in higher and we had a public hearing for that bringing the amount to $624.00.

Gary Gilbert - You did borings in the beginning and you did two estimates and left one estimate open for hard digging, is that what you are trying to say? Doug Cole - There is unclassified excavation, which is digging up anything but rock and a separate bid item digging rock. What happened here is the quantity of rock was greater than they showed on the bid sheet. The contractor is still being paid $90.00 a yard for rock it's just that there is more rock to pay them for.

Greg Way - So. Shore Road - Is that what you are saying you made the mistake under estimating the amount of the rock?

John McDonald - There is sixty different items in the bid. We put a quantity in for each item. The quantity we estimated for the rock for less.

Gary Gilbert- Mariaville Road - Is curious as to how when you bid a job, half way through the job say we made a mistake on the bid and want more money? Doug Cole - We are not the contractors, the contractors the one who is getting more money not them. The quantity is more than they estimated, so he gets paid more, he gets paid for the work they do.

John McDonald - Generally they have enough money in contingency to cover these things. But in this case because of the delay, because things were going up we didn't have that cushion to cover it.

Roy Brasmeister - Hilltop Road - We the tax -payers are paying one way or another. We are paying for this building we are paying a unit for every ten students in the school. John McDonald - In the Sewer Use Law the way it is charged, rather than pay the fixed amount $654.00, commercial places pay a different fee based on the estimated quantity of the sewage that they are using, schools are based on general standards every 10 (ten) students is considered one single family unit.

Roy Brasmeister - There are other tax payers paying just for school taxes because they are not in the sewer district, what about all of the others who are in the sewer district, we are paying for school and being in the district.

Attorney Fassett - It will be paid indirectly through the school taxes. Council-member Carlson - Anyone who is in the Schalmont School District will be picking up the cost for this school.

Bob Gilbert - Mariaville Road - Would like clarification on the survey. The only survey he recalls is residents being asked if they were interested in sewer. What survey was Jack McDonald referring to? Jack McDonald - There were two income surveys.

Marty Mugits - Mariaville Road - It was mentioned earlier that the first cost increase was because the project was not started on time.

Supervisor Merrihew - Major reason for the delay in the start of this project was because it took pretty close to a year to take certain residents within the district to court in order to get easements from them. And added that they were paid for those easements also.

Marty Mugits - Didn't you think with all of these people some would say no?

Supervisor Merrihew - There are several that you anticipate will say no.

Attorney Fassett - In district one, we had just one person who wouldn't sign off that we took to court and settled it without a hearing. This one went the full route, on the day of the appraisal trial we were down to four, the Judge issued a decision, we have to compensate them what ever the court says. That took almost a year. We had to take the easements, by eminent domain. Meaning we had to get it from the court because the property owners would not sign off voluntarily. When you take property by eminent domain you have to then compensate fairly and adequately the property owner for what you have taken.

Marty Mugits- So, it wasn't their fault.

Attorney Fassett - No it had nothing to do with McDonald Engineering.

Harvey Nolan - So. Shore Road - Asked contractor why cost so much. He was told a whole line was omitted from the plans.

Homer Ray - Mariaville Rd.- He doesn't feel they should have to for the Engineers mistake. In the beginning he was all for the sewers, now he is not so sure. He has lived in his house for 30 years and doesn't have $600.00 in having his septic pumped in a 30 year- period.

Ed Fassett - The amount of rock is the same whether it is estimated correctly or not. It is whatever is in the ground we have to pay for it. No matter what the estimates are the rock has to be removed, that's a fixed quantity, McDonald Engineers job was to estimate the amount of rock that had to be removed. When they started digging they found more rock than was estimated. It was a bid price quantity contract we have to pay the contractor whatever cubic yards they remove in rock.

Homer Ray - The engineers or somebody underestimated someplace along the line and made mistakes and in the end it is up to us to pay for their mistakes, and doesn't think we should have to pay for their mistakes.

Ed Fassett - You are not paying for their mistakes. He made an estimate in error, but the quantity of the rock is still the same. If there was a mistake it doesn't make any difference we have to still remove the rock.

John McDonald - The mistake was related to the quantity on the bid sheet.

Al Grossman - Lake Ave. - The type of bid that was bid is to determine who will do the job the cheapest. If you tried to do as a lump sum bid in an area like this no body would bid. He doesn't like it any more than anybody else does. There is not much you can do about it.

No other comments, public hearing closed at 7:50 pm.

Lynn Latella - Weast Road - Would like an explanation on the grinder pumps. They were informed some houses would not need grinder pumps, now all of a sudden everyone is getting grinder pumps.

Doug Cole - The total number of grinder pumps for the system is 73 and that is for houses that sit below the road that can't flow by gravity from house to pipe in the road.

Lynn Latella - They are not lower than the road and they are getting one.

Doug Cole - There is a section of Weast Road that is getting pumps.

Lars Breckenridge - Spoke of the cost to run the grinder pump.

John McDonald - The approximate cost for electricity to run the pump is $50.00.

Lou Bushey - Hillside Road- Also has a vacant lot on the lake, sees that they have already dug that section, noticed there is no stake, he doesn't know where the lateral is or if there is one there, he also asked the cost per unit for a vacant lot.

Doug Cole - Typically a vacant lot that is too small to be considered a buildable lot don't receive a lateral and there's no charge. The Busheys said that there was a house on it a one time. John McDonald -Advised them to contact Dale Warner he is the one who gave out the stakes.

Mr. Bushey asked about the cost for a vacant lot. John McDonald explained for a vacant buildable lot a lateral is put in and you pay half unit of the debt service.

Resident - So. Shore Road - asked the date of completion? Doug Cole - For the treatment plant in mid June, the collection system the first week of August. It may be possible to put some sections of the collection in service before that date. Everything is supposed be done August 15th.

John McDonald - They will be a letter sent out by the town board sometime in July with the exact date. It looks like everything should be up and running the last week of July the first week of August.

Lars Breckenridge- Weast Road - Asked to have the engineer clarify when they say everything will be up and running. Some of us have it in our mind that everything will be done and all of the construction will be gone. That is not exactly true, restoration and so forth. Can you give us some idea when the restoration will be complete?

Jack McDonald - The date of the final completion the contractor will probably will be here for three months after. We have a form to fill out if you have a problem or if you are not satisfied with the way the work is done fill out form and drop it off the Town Clerk or at the trailer.

Beverly Vosburgh - South Shore Road - The problem she has is she has no water they cut off her water supply. The town has given her water but is fighting her each time. She has nothing, they have not done a thing for her yard, has big ruts in her driveway where the equipment comes down. The water supply they cut off is now going into her furnace. She has a sump pump running there 24 hours a day. She has always had water and has never run out.

Doug Cole - Dan Dixon has been there and is still looking into.

Beverly Vosburgh - Conserves water, has been trying to cooperate and go along with the town. Enough is enough someone created the problem someone should fix the problem. The only way it will be fixed is a new well.

Joan Case - She also lives in a dust bowl and just wanted to reconfirm the contractors will put down another 3 or 4 " of asphalt sometime between now and September.

Doug Cole - paving should begin the first week in June.

Roy Weber - Mariaville Road - Question on the final landscaping, they put something in his front lawn about 3 weeks ago and there is not a seed in that stuff just hay. Are they going to come back and seed it and cover it?

Doug Cole - To make sure it gets done is fill out a form and turn in.

Nancy Eddings - Hillside Road - Has difficulty in understanding when $600.00 is being added to their tax bill, why they have to get a permit for $30.00? We pay the salary of the Building Inspector. Supervisor Merrihew - It has to be inspected three times, covers the cost of inspection, covers the cost of the inspector coming out three times to inspect.

Nancy Eddings - It is frustrating. She has lived here 35 years and had her septic tank pumped 4 times with no problem.

Bob Gilbert - He understands the property should be returned to the same condition as humanly possible if not better. His main concern is his blacktop driveway, if not satisfied with the end result what is his recourse?

Supervisor Merrihew - take pictures of what he has right now. John McDonald - If you have pictures of what had before the driveway is done they can meet with him.

Bob Gilbert - He just wanted to say the sewer is an overpriced fiasco. People on lake should have it they can pay for it. We should not have been forced to.

Marty Mugits - Last year the newsletter we post marked two days after the meeting. Asked about the sewer map, was that designed based on where they assumed treatment plant would be? He heard that the plant was moved and none of the houses between here and there have to hook into it.

Doug Cole - The boundary line for the district for 2001 stayed the same. At the time the district was formed the actual place for the plant was not known. People in between the forced main do not have to hook in they are not in the district.

Mr. Vosburgh - We had to take sewer even if we didn't want. Are we going have to take water down the road and go through this again? Supervisor Merrihew- Does not see that happening.

Resident - Asked why water line could not put in the same trenches as the sewer, with the theory that if water ever gets hooked up the work is done its paid for.

John McDonald - For a water district you have to have sources of supply have to have storage supply you have to have pipe. Water lines have to be ten feet away from sewer lines.

Attorney Fassett - Encouraged everyone to hook up in the first year, does not want to have to take resident to town court and they would have to pay an extra $1000.00.

Supervisor Merrihew - In District 1 we were pretty successful in getting grant money and low interest loans. If you are over age 65 and at a certain income, they could possibly be grant money out there. If you are under 65 low income loans available. Residents should contact her at town hall or home and she will help them with the paperwork.

Supervisor Merrihew thanked everyone for coming we appreciate it and apologized for the increase. Mistakes are made thinks Mr. McDonald was good enough to stand up and admit to those mistakes and we appreciate that.

Council-member Frisbee - Appreciates residents for coming.

No other comments, meeting adjourned at 8:45 pm.

Respectfully submitted, Leah M. Lennon